Show Notes

How is someone with no investing experience or expertise supposed to get into the game without any know-how? Aren’t they just setting themselves up for failure? That’s no longer a concern with dub, which allows users to copy the portfolios of accomplished investors. Rather than having to pick individual stocks, dub allows users to invest in people and their ideas. It’s truly the next great innovation in investing.

Certified unicorn guide Roland Siebelink recently spoke with dub founder and CEO Steven Wang on the Midstage Startup Momentum Podcast to discuss how dub fits into the investing world and what Steven’s journey has been like as a young startup founder.

• What it’s like having a startup in a regulated industry.

• The unique challenge of being a young founder and hiring people twice your age.

• How the role of a CEO changes immediately after a product launches.

• Why it can be best not to pre-define an ideal customer profile.

• The one company-wide metric dub uses.

• How dub is navigating a two-sided market.

Transcript

Roland Siebelink: Hello and welcome to the Midstage Startup Momentum podcast. My name is Roland Siebelink and I'm a coach and ally to so many of the fastest-growing startups around the world. And we have an amazing one in our studio today. It is the founder and CEO of dub. We have Steven Wang joining us. Hello, Steven, how are you? 

Steven Wang: Roland, it's a pleasure to be with you on a Tuesday afternoon. 

Roland Siebelink: Excellent. It's still Tuesday morning for me. Once again, we are talking across time zones. Steven, you're dialing in from? 

Steven Wang: New York City, Financial District. We are a block away from the New York Stock Exchange, the capital of capitalism.

Roland Siebelink: Excellent. Yes, I personally love going to New York. 

Let's not talk about me. Let's talk about dub. Steven, what do you guys do, who do you serve, and what difference are you making in the world? 

Steven Wang: Yeah. You can think of dub as building eBay for investing. If you're a person that's out there that's looking to invest and you don't exactly know what to invest in. And that's a lot of us today. There's so much stimulus coming in and there are millions of people on Wall Street that do this for a living that may or may not be able to make money. Where do you invest your capital? 

Historically over the past hundreds of years, when you didn't know how to invest your money, you would go find someone who's really good at it. You go find a professional. That's what we do in every other area of life from law to healthcare; we go to doctors, we go to lawyers. But to actually give your money to a finance professional, it's actually pretty difficult to do. You need to meet a minimum bar in terms of how much money you have. There's qualified purchaser, disqualified investor rules, where you have to have at least $2 million to actually go to a wealth manager to invest in a hedge fund. 

For the average American, giving your wealth to a financial professional to manage has never been something that's accessible. I found that to be a tough part of me coming to the US, being an immigrant growing up, and saying, “Hey, without the financial know-how and the resources, it's very hard to access this world of finance and being in Wall Street and being New York City.” 

The goal though, was to break down those barriers. How do we bring access to financial professionals to the broader masses? How do we bring it to the average American? I was thinking of this idea right when COVID hit when I was still in school. And I saw this massive wave of retail investors coming online for the first time, millions of new retail investors, a record number of counts and trading volume. And what were the retail investors doing?

They were following ideas and narratives that really resonated with them. We saw crypto, meme stocks, Robinhood, Reddit, star fund managers like Cathie Wood blow up. And there was this confluence of retail access opening up for the first time because it's a condition for investing, because of this influencer driven economy, but also this desire to do it in the right way, to follow a professional.

And seeing all these social dynamics come together, I realized it's time for a product and a platform that can bring together this new consumer behavior of wanting to invest in people that they believe in, and also marrying it with investing in a professional and a person. And at the day, narrative driven investing is really following a person, an idea.

You can think of it as an ETF or mutual fund; anyone can make their own essentially. And anyone can invest alongside another individual. That goes back to eBay, the marketplace for investing concept that I started out with. The people that we're servicing are really the average person, the average American, the average person out there that's interested in investing but doesn't have the time or resources or know-how to get educated and become good at deploying capital. And they should have the same access that the rest of the world has investing with professionals.

Roland Siebelink: Excellent. It's actually as if you were to put your money into an ETF, as you say, but then actually for managed portfolios where hopefully you get more returns because you trust that investment manager, that fund manager to do the right thing without having to buy into their fund proper.

Steven Wang: Absolutely. And part of what made that possible is we're actually the first broker dealer member FINRA to actually offer copy trading as a business line. And that was probably one of the hardest things that the business was not actually even just building a product - which is very complex; we built a brokerage like Fidelity or Schwab from the ground up - which was actually being the first to do this in a compliant way. 

And that's why you've never seen a copy trading product like ours, where anyone can essentially be copied or copy someone else. That was a huge investment on our part. A lot of huge kudos to our compliance team, some of our investors, just working with the regulators and making sure that all their needs were met.

In terms of at the end of the day, providing education and a better way to invest for retail, which is a little contrarian to a lot of people, is what the regulators actually care about. They want the best for retail customers. And if you have that in mind as well, and you design your product around that, the outcomes and alignment and incentives are one and the same.

Roland Siebelink: Very good. Of course, you mentioned regulators and in fintech, as well as in some other tech sub verticals, that's always a big concern. 

Many of those folks find it very hard to come to terms with this is a regulated industry. I gotta deal with all this bureaucracy and all these extra onerous requirements. How quickly did you figure that out? And how are you going about that? What's your perspective on working in a regulated industry as a startup founder?

Steven Wang: It was certainly very difficult in the beginning. Building this company has been contrary to all of these expectations I had growing up and looking at the startup world. And even with my first company that was in a non regulated space, working in a regulated space is much slower. It's much more tactical. And it's not only just about running as fast as you can. It's about how do you hire for experience, especially for someone like me that has never dealt with a regulated industry before. How to bring in the right people to actually tackle this. To me, in a regulated space, when I'm a CEO operating a regulated company, paying for experience, it’s all of a sudden much more important than it would be in other industries. 

In Silicon Valley, people look up to this idea of coming in and building the first principles, not knowing anything. And need to blend the boat. I'd say there's this constant tension that needs to be inherent in the culture. And for you to be successful with building a regulated company but also moving at a pace, the culture needs to drive a strong respect for both. And you need people that have both a focus on the regulations but know how to play within the game. And operate quickly within the game.

And part of that is paying for experience. For me, I've been very lucky to hire some phenomenal individuals that have been in the industry for 15, 20 years - have done this, but also still have the startup mindset. 

Roland Siebelink: You mentioned this is not even your first company. Tell us the story about your first entrepreneurial venture.

Steven Wang: I was a very introverted kid growing up and I loved engineering robotics. That's how I got started with programming. I love making money too. And that's actually how I got the original idea for this company. It goes way back to second grade where my parents are in the U.S. I was born and raised in Detroit. They both worked for auto. We didn't have that much money growing up. My dad made $10,000 a year at his first job. And so financial responsibility is really, really important for me and my family. As a kid, I always wanted to think of ways to make money. 

I was a hustler kid. I was doing my programming on the side - robotics nerdiness - but I'll always be selling origami, Pokemon cards, everything I could to get my hands on or that I could make myself. Those two passions really blended together as I grew older. There’s a product side and there's a sales side of creating something that people want with the hustle. And then there was the engineering and also partially product and design, building something. I was really deep into robotics, so I really loved getting hands on and creating all these mechanical hardware pieces. What I spend a lot of my time on today is design, creating and thinking about how do you create a beautiful user experience.

I got very lucky earlier in high school; I had a chance to bring these two disciplines together. I did this pitch competition in ninth grade, and I ended up working in a VR education company. That eventually spun out to the idea that I wanted to work more and more full time on. 

I remember I applied for YC when I was 15 years old. We got to the interview stage; they flew us out. We got rejected, we didn't make it in. But just them paying for our flights and getting us out there to Silicon Valley - it was my first time there - it was just a mind blowing experience. 

And I eventually dropped out of high school mid junior year to go work on this full time. We raised money from the MIT media lab. There was acceleration. They did raise some money from the angel investors that we had met. In total, we raised a couple hundred thousand dollars to go tackle it.

I had two other co-founders, typical one bedroom experience. Moved out to Cambridge. We lived there for a year and a half, and were building VR software for K-12 schools. And the whole premise is that there's all these science education labs, these history lessons that you watch videos about and you read about, but you never go do because it's too expensive or you simply can't go to the moon to run a science lab and know gravity. You can't go to Spain to practice your Spanish. We wanted to make that a reality. 

And what we've learned very quickly is that it’s very hard to sell in the K-12 schools through so much bureaucracy. That was the first time working in a, quote unquote, regulated space. But even more so, they have no money. They have no money. Schools are very tight on budget. There's long sales cycles. And those added together made it very hard to build a sustainable business in. But we love building technology and we'd gotten patent pending through some of our early tech that we'd created.

We still have a very early days of VR in 2017. We ended up selling the company; that was my first little stimulus check - nothing that much in the grand scheme of things, but a lot of money for a 17 year old kid. I went up after that and moved to San Francisco to work for Apple, decided to go back to school and that led me to start the second company. That's the narrative in this loop. 

Roland Siebelink: Excellent. Okay. Thank you for telling us the story. You mentioned already something about being in an immigration family. I’m an immigrant myself and there's tons and tons of immigrants among startup founders and the whole startup ecosystem. Why do you think that is?

Steven Wang: I'm a big believer that a lot of our actions, most of our actions in our adulthood are very much informed by the patterns and beliefs shaped by our parents and our environment growing up as a kid. And for immigrant families, you usually come to the U. S. because you're running away from something, you're looking for better opportunities, you're chasing that American dream.

And that means you're probably coming to the U. S. with very little. And that was certainly my case for when my parents moved over. They had two suitcases and $500. And that's the same case for a lot of immigrants I know out there. And you need to fight to survive. You need to work harder. You need to work harder than everyone else to even get to a baseline level of survival after you immigrate. And those experiences and that grit and that desire to win and to create a better life for yourself and your family is something that makes you very well suited to go through the trials and tribulations of a startup. 

To me, that's something I never want to lose. And I think that's the immigrant advantage. I'm not saying other people don't have that. Certainly, people with that right environment growing up also have that edge and that mindset. But I hold that mindset very, very sacred. I have a big, big thank you to my parents and my mom if she's listening to this. It’s something that wasn't easy. We had to go through a lot to get there. But it’s something that I respect a ton and immensely, and you and other immigrant founders and people that have been shining examples for us a couple stages down the line that I look up to.

Roland Siebelink: Okay. Well, that's amazing. And thank you for showing that it's not always that easy and that we all go through hard times as well. I think that’s something we can do a little bit more of in the startup world to not just pitch all the time. Let's just say not always pitch but also bitch sometimes.

Steven Wang: One of the biggest things, I'll share this, this might be a little off topic. One of the toughest things as a younger founder - and all the younger founders listening - is growing. How do you think about managing and working with people that might be double your age and have personalities and experiences that have shaped most of their careers and gotten them very successful to where they are today?

And for me, it’s been, as a leader, adopting a philosophy of vulnerability. And Everyone has something that they’re dealing with - whether it's company, whether it's personal life. And when you can be more human and when you cannot be that superhero mindset that you feel you have all the time - and that's certainly something that immigrants feel like they need, especially for me, where living up to expectations and my parents' very high expectations is most of my life. 

That's what made me successful in the context of being home. And I very much have carried that and caught myself carrying that through to the way that I lead, the way that I work with other people. But that's never the perfect image. That’s not always true. And being vulnerable and humanizing yourself and being honest with some of the things that you're dealing with, difficulties that you see really makes remote cohesive culture because it brings people together. 

Whereas the people that work with my team, like I tell everyone, you are a shareholder in this company. You have to remind yourself of that every single day. And yes, I chose and you chose to work together. We both chose to work together. There's nothing too small. There's nothing too big. And whatever you're not doing well with or something that you want to celebrate, I'm always here to do that with you, and I promise you the same.

Roland Siebelink: Steven, on that, in particular, I do hear a lot of younger founders that find it very hard to work with people that may be, as you said, twice their age, with a lot more experience. It's not coming that naturally to either side. 

Steven Wang: I think one of the things that I've learned is, where I've made the most mistakes, is hiring people that I can't sympathize with or empathize with. And it has been older folks that I have hired. I'll be honest, some of those relationships - A, move too quickly on, but B, when we brought them on there was a fear in the system where I didn’t open up enough space for these more senior people to feel that they were comfortable sharing and being honest with feedback.

And what I had to realize is it's not easy for the other side to work for someone half their age. I was only thinking about my own ego, but not their ego. In that lens, their ego is probably even harder to come across because they've been doing it for so long, probably been executive at some other company or high up. And when you view it from that lens, it's just two egos clashing. It's a weird power dynamic. And this tension slowly builds if you don't open up the right vectors for letting truth and honesty, vulnerability come through. 

And I’m generalizing a little bit, but I had a couple cases where I didn't realize that until it's too late. As I reflect on some of these hiring decisions and why these things didn't work out, a large part was because of that. Now when I think about making more senior hires or people that join our team that are a little later stage in their careers, it's being really open upfront and understanding what type of mindset are they coming to us with? What are they really worried about? What are they bringing to the table? What's the baggage that they have? And being really clear and honest about that during the interview process. 

Roland Siebelink: Let's go back to dub. I want to get a feel for where you guys are at. Let's talk about the product status. What have you got in the market already? What are you working on? What is coming down the pike? 

Steven Wang: Absolutely. We launched two months ago on CBC. We did our big launch exclusive. I encourage you all to go watch that. It was a really exciting moment.

Roland Siebelink: And I encourage everyone, even if you're listening to audio, you should see this fragment on YouTube because that smile that Steven just sparked was amazingly big.

Steven Wang: Thank you. And why I'm going toward that is - yes, there's a lot of pomp and circumstances around launches, especially doing it in a big way on TV with a hundred thousand, millions of viewers live, which to me was the proudest moment for me as a CEO because my team has worked so hard. 

We've been very lucky to come out of the gates going very strong. It's been less than two months in the market. We're consistently in the top charts for finance and the app store. We're about to cross a hundred thousand downloads from the customer front. And we're growing quickly. And we just recently turned on monetization. We're starting to make money.

Most of our growth today has been organic and we're starting to do paid ads for the first time, building out and diversifying some of our channels. To me, we've been live for a little bit. Things have settled in. The data is starting to be consistent. We're getting some early understandings and where growth is with the early numbers and how do we make sense of all this new stimulus that's really come in.

It's been exciting, but also it's been really challenging as a CEO to balance all these new priorities and all these new things that now take up your time that didn't before. It's been a struggle some days to wake up and think about how do I prioritize? What do I do? And sometimes I don’t even know what’s important. 

And then it's, what is my process to go create a vision for everything that I want, everything that the company needs. And what is that for each distinct department? And when I have the vision, how do I drive clarity around the rest of my team and really focus people? It's been really exciting just to learn. It's been an immense challenge. We're still in the earliest innings, but growth has been phenomenal. 

Roland Siebelink: Yeah, the smiles are telling the whole story for sure. But I love that you also say on the product side, you're looking at things like retention, stickiness. I'm usually looking for products that can say they're 10 times better than whatever's the closest alternative. What do you typically compare yourself against? What substitute or what thing that people did by themselves or maybe there's a competitive app you compare yourself against? 

Steven Wang: To me, we're a very unique business in the investing space because there's never been this marketplace style business. There are some comps internationally. There have been companies that tried quote, unquote, copy trading, but in very different ways and with very different products or it's not designed the way that we have. But we're the first to do it in the U.S. 

One of the common comps is actually crypto. The space is unregulated, so there are copying trading companies in the crypto space. We've looked at some of those numbers. But to me, the two comps that we've really lasered into that are public and readily available are what Robinhood has, and also what some of the robo advisors have, like Wealthfront and Betterment. And to me, our business is right in the middle.

Some of the things that we're looking at are just average session length and how often they're turning out of portfolios, what are their average deposits and not just initial deposits but growth rate of deposits right after the initial deposit. And if the growth rate deposits are looking good, that means you're finding more value in the portfolios that they're copying on the platform. And that shows me they've experienced the magical moment. They took a little bit of money, just give it a try, but it's working out for them. And they want more of that. 

To me, are we growing the areas that we want to and being diligent about understanding and defining what this I. C. P. looks like - this initial customer profile. We don't have an exact yet; it's still a little volatile in the first couple months. But I think we're building a really clear picture through all the different data points that we have of what is a good really early doctor and how that may evolve into the future.

Roland Siebelink: Okay. You are actually just using your organic traction to see which profile is emerging as your ICP rather than predefining it upfront and only targeting those folks. That's what I often see earlier stage startups do indeed. 

Steven Wang: Absolutely. To me, it’s really important to have hypotheses around what it'll look like. And then letting the data answer those hypotheses. We had hypotheses where they'd probably be more of a semi pro user that is interested in the markets already - probably not someone that's completely uneducated. Cause we're looking at an early adopter phase and someone that's willing to try out completely new brokerage. And trying a new brokerage is the high bar. It's a lot of friction because of the KOSC laws. You need to give your social security number, a lot of personal information to even open the account and then you gotta link in to deposit money. 

To me, we have the hypothesis. It's proving out to be largely right, but also it's not being so held to what our original hypothesis is and iterated quickly. One thing that we're doing outside of the product that we've built an app for really quickly is how do we test a lot of our hypotheses around who our customers are and iterate without doing any engineering work. And there's so much now that you can do on the ads platforms to run different tests and that helps save time on the engineering side to better target and build features in a road map whereas we don't need to waste time building things that we don't have data on yet.

There's a lot of different levers that you can pull in terms of what you focus on. But this goes back to my vision. Given so many data points coming in, what is the clear vision? How do you drive alignment? What is your one metric? And for me, it's been really important to just find one growth metric for the entire company to drive for us across all departments. And it's getting really, really clear and holding people accountable to those. 

Roland Siebelink: Are you willing to share what growth metric you’ve landed on?

Steven Wang: It's fluctuating a bit, but it's basically a week over week subscriber growth metric. Are we getting more subscribers week over week?And it's fluctuating a bit and we're still running a lot of AB tests on the price points, free trial links, freemium versus free trial. There's lots of variables for me to get really specific there cause it's changing so often. But we revisit it every single week. We have a weekly business review every Tuesday. And we do a very transparent, deep dive at the metrics. 

And to me, that's been one of my core values - everyone knows the enrollment that we have, the business metrics, how much money we're making, and that's empowered even our frontline engineers to make great product decisions at the front end. There's been a really strong element of trust there where we have an inclination to really ship fast as long as we're operating within the right framework. 

In the early days, when you're 20, 25 people, you just got to drive focus and clarity. Too many numbers, too many things to think about. Things are moving so quickly that my goal with it that I can do a good job is if you do this, if you try this, any team member, they should be able to regurgitate our mission, our clarity, our top metrics for this quarter, and everything that's important for the company staff without me even helping.

And to me, I truly believe that for everyone in the team. Because we just repeat the same things over and over again. And honestly, everyone evangelizes it. And sometimes it does get a little cheesy. Every meeting is almost a sales meeting because you've got to remind people constantly. Our attention spans are really short and I just thought of this as a Gen Z that loves scrolling through Instagram reels every day, what would I need to apply to myself to be reminded of some of these things?

Roland Siebelink: How do you set your sales targets for yourself?

Steven Wang: That's a really good question. For us, it's a little interesting because we have a two sided marketplace. We have copiers, regular users, copy users and then we have our creators who are the supply. The people are getting copied because they are good at investing. When you say sales internally, we almost think about what is our sales to acquire more supply and graders? And that's something that we've actually gone back and forth a bunch as a team. Do we focus on supply or demand right now? 

And we've screwed this up too many times to count because we thought both were important early on - resources in supply and demand. But what we've realized is that in any given marketplace, you usually have either supply or demand be more important in any given span of time. And what we realized for us is that in the early days, our demand has been more important because we're lucky that we can actually subsidize a lot of our supply by building a lot of these interesting portfolios that people can copy in house.

What we did is we went out to a big hedge fund - we hired a head of investments who is a former portfolio manager who managed billions of dollars at Millennium, one of the largest hedge funds in the world, to actually build out a lot of our early things that you can copy in the app.

We were able to see the marketplace, quote unquote. And that allowed us to focus a lot more energy on going for demand. And part of how I think about the cycle is once we have a lot of demand, a lot of capital, it makes it much easier to go out and attract really good supply and take them away from what they're doing now to spend time on the platform. We're in full blown demand generation mode right now. It's been a lot of marketing - paid ads, a lot of organic content. Hopefully, in a couple of months we'll be at a place where we can cycle back to doubling down the supply side and flesh out both sides in the marketplace.

Roland Siebelink: We only have a few minutes left, but I still want to talk about two things. The capacity you're building in the business - your team - you've already talked a little bit about how you're managing them. And then also some further snippets of leadership advice to founders behind you. But let's talk capacity. How big is your team right now? What functions do they typically cover?

Steven Wang: Yeah, we're little over 20 people now, 60, 70% of our team is engineering - we’re engineering heavy. A lot of deep back work to build a brokerage. It's not just regular, it's not just a regular trading platform. If you think about this, the complexity is much more heightened with what we do, where if you're copying someone with 30 assets in their portfolio, and there's 1,000 people copying that portfolio with 30 assets, whenever that portfolio changes or trades and all 30 assets trade, you're putting out 30,000 trades at once.

Think about that - if you're copying a bunch of portfolios and people are trading daily, we're processing hundreds of thousands, if not millions of trades in any given week, and that's an immense amount of back end situation set up to deal with, so very engineering heavy. And the rest is either operations on the compliance side or marketing. Marketing is our big focus right now, scaling marketing content. And we're making our first marketing senior executive head level hire to really take our budget that we're deploying and our firepower internally and scale that up in a new way. 

Roland Siebelink: Okay, perfect. Other than just hiring, how are you making sure that people are actually performing, that everyone is productive, that people are effective in their jobs?

Steven Wang: There's two ways to go about this. One philosophy is you can be pretty rigid in how you think about one on ones, reviews, setting up the right frameworks to understand how well someone is doing at any given time. And that works, and I think a lot of CEO coaches teach that as well. This is the playbook that you need to execute, consultant style. 

And I tried some of that early on. I got pretty rigid on what expectations were for manager-employee relationships. But what I realized is that it just adds so much overhead. If you hire the right people, they have the ownership mindset, and you are a leader that trusts before you inspect, or how I like to say it, you expect results before inspecting.

That drives immense ownership and speed and pace, where today I feel immensely lucky because everyone on our team I don't need to manage that much. We sit down and we dedicate time to setting high level vision. There's feedback and bi-directional feedback as well. I love feedback. 

Once you have that right level of trust and this radical honesty and this curiosity for how do we strive toward the same vision and getting really, really clear on that vision and how to close that gap, to me, just let the team fly. And you should, if you're doing your job right as a CEO at an early stage company, you shouldn't be spending that much time on management. It should be people that really care and are doing the right thing because they're just deeply aligned across the board. 

Roland Siebelink: That brings us in the last few minutes to leadership. You’ve already talked a little bit about how you've learned and how you've figured out how to empathize more with folks. What else would you say is absolutely key in running a successful startup as a founder? And what are the changing expectations of you as a leader?

Steven Wang: I will give something that's very specific to me. I do believe a lot of tech founders are naturally more introverted. For me, especially getting into the business and even before my whole life, I was very used to being an IC, being heads down, driving success through my own mechanism. Not relying on other people. But what you need to remember is your job in a startup, as soon as you scale past a couple people, your leverage is much higher when you spend time improving everyone on your team by 15% versus spending time improving yourself by even 20-50%. That compounds and your leverage is so much higher when you distribute it across the company. 

Remind yourself of that, write it down. The moment that you wake up, I've got sticky notes on my monitor I look at every single day, small notes to remind myself every single day. Even though it might expend energy, you're an introvert and naturally doesn't come to you to do a lot of these meetings every single day, to drive alignment, or having some of these conversations.

Invest in that. Invest in making that a habit. Invest in making that something that you dedicate yourself to because that will only deliver better results. And yes, it's going against the grain and rewiring a lot of what's gotten you here. What I'd love to say is what's gotten you here today, most likely is not what is going to get you to where you need to go.And you always need to adapt, disrupt, and change to be more successful. 

Roland Siebelink: Now I know we're almost running out of time. Any last thing that people who have made it all the way to the end of this podcast can help you with? How can they help dub? Where should they go? What should they read? How can they reach out?

Steven Wang: This is my call to action, and hopefully this resonates with a lot of folks. If you're someone that's interested and passionate about the markets and you want to make some money or you want to just learn about investing and you don't have time, you have a nine-to-five job, that’s what we've built dub for, that's who we built dub for. 

Find someone that you can trust in the platform. Give it a shot. Sit back, relax, and watch them trade for you. You copy them. And that should be an experience where you not only learn about investing in a way that you could never by following a professional, it's also engaging, it's fun, and, you'll be one of the earliest members - hopefully, of this new movement in investing that will be the third coming for retail.

We saw what Schwab did with the discount broker in 1980. Robinhood was the first to bring free investing in 2010. And hopefully, a decade from now, with dub, people will no longer be picking stocks. They will be picking people to copy in order to invest.

Roland Siebelink: Love it. Okay. Excellent pitch, excellent CTA. With that, we'll close it. Thank you, Steven Wang, founder and CEO of dub. Everything is available at dubapp.com. 

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